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Noise cancellation for VR using AP800 (MP3 Examples)

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    Noise cancellation for VR using AP800 (MP3 Examples)

    I've had my VR setup a bit out of sorts for over a month now due to my HS2 upgrade. Spent some time last weekend getting everything back in order and the new server racked up.

    In the process, I made a few recordings that better demonstrate the noise cancelling capability of the Gentner AP800 mic mixers. This is an old thread that has some recordings, but I think the new ones here are a better demonstration of how well the device works:

    First recording made using my notebook's "el cheapo" built-in mic. The notebook was placed on a desk against the wall where the Crown MB2 mic is installed. The music and TTS annoucements are coming from speakers built into the opposing wall.

    Bad Company is blasting on the speakers much louder than I would normally listen to it (to the point the notebook mic is distorting), and I'm standing in the middle of the room (12' x 13') speaking VR commands. I think you'll agree that in most cases it's difficult to hear my voice commands over the tunes...

    Voice commands issued:
    What time is it?
    What's the date?
    Check the doors?
    Please standby (my ignore phrase)

    Note: The music in this recording is automatically ducked (lowered) during the TTS announcements and then slowly ramped back up by a Biamp SPM723 pre-amp:

    Click here to listen to an MP3 of voice commands issued in a room with loud music playing

    This next recording is exactly the same scenario, but it demonstrates what the PC sound card "hears" on the mic input used for VR. As you'll see, my voice is heard clearly over the loud background music and the TTS responses which are also cancelled using the AP800 are barely audible!

    Click here to listen to an MP3 of what the sound card hears using the AP800 for noise cancellation

    I know a number of members here have recently purchased AP800's or are actively bidding on them... hopefully this is some incentive to win some autions and get them hooked up and working!

    Cheers,
    Paul
    Last edited by pkoslow; November 7, 2009, 07:05 PM.

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    #2
    Paul,
    Thanks. Now I know mine is working as it should.
    One thing I noticed is that the AP-Ware keeps the cpu up in the 80 to 90 percent range. Have you noticed this? I am running XP Home, so it may be different. I am not monitoring anything so there is no serial activity, just lots of CPU.

    Thanks, Gardner

    Comment


      #3
      All I can say is WOW! My system so far has no VR, but you are making me think it might be possible to actually make it work reasonably.....

      Comment


        #4
        OK Paul you have my attention. Unfortunately I have no idea what a Mixer is because I've never needed one or used one so you'll have to bear with me. So where do I start? Can you explain to me (hopefully I'm not the only one) exactly how this works. How does the noise cancellation work? How exactly do you switch the Mic's? I need more info and thanks in advance for bringing this down to my level.
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          #5
          Paul,

          Excellent follow up to your past thread. Very excellent examples.
          I have been configuring AP800 and belive to have all configured
          because I have performed training profiles with high accuracy.
          However, when I try VR on HS, it is very poor. Understands less than
          10% accuracy.

          Does this have to do with HS 2.0?
          Are you currently running 1.7 again for reliable VR?

          Thanks

          Comment


            #6
            Rupp,
            Here is an article that explaines some of the theory and practicality of the mixer. It answers a lot of questions about how it works and how to implement it.

            Just click on the page-down arrow to get started.

            http://www-fp.mcs.anl.gov/ag/events/...oads/aat-2.ppt
            Last edited by gcyeaw; December 20, 2005, 10:18 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by gcyeaw
              One thing I noticed is that the AP-Ware keeps the cpu up in the 80 to 90 percent range. Have you noticed this? I am running XP Home, so it may be different. I am not monitoring anything so there is no serial activity, just lots of CPU.

              Thanks, Gardner
              Gardner - Yes, the AP-Ware is a PIG and always consumes my CPU too. I never worried about it much because I only run it for short times while tuning the system.

              Paul

              Click to visit: www.sbsmarthomes.com
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                #8
                Originally posted by airodas
                Paul,

                Excellent follow up to your past thread. Very excellent examples.
                I have been configuring AP800 and belive to have all configured
                because I have performed training profiles with high accuracy.
                However, when I try VR on HS, it is very poor. Understands less than
                10% accuracy.

                Does this have to do with HS 2.0?
                Are you currently running 1.7 again for reliable VR?

                Thanks
                airodas,

                It's difficult to say why you are having troubles with your VR (lots of variables). Obtaining good gear like the AP800 & quality mics is just the first step. Mic placement, room acoustics, and tuning (gate threashold, individual mic gain, EQ, filtering, etc) also play a large role in successful VR.

                I understand that training the profiles seems to work, so you must be getting close. I'd recommend using the Sound Recorder app that's built into Windows to record what your sound card is hearing. You may find that your voice is too loud or too quiet, or you may still have too much noise in the background.

                ***Another tip that may help with your training sessions! Make sure you read the training text in a voice similar to how you normally speak. Something I learned is that I read very differently from how I normally speak. I read with a lower more authorative voice (my girlfriend calls this my "work voice"), I guess I use it on the phone sometimes too . When I speak normally, it's usually a bit faster and at a higher pitch with more inflection.

                I'm back on v1.7 for now. I think my VR problems with HS2 may be due to the M-Audio sound card I'm using. I've added a SoundBlaster Live card back into the system and will do some more testing over the holiday break. I plan to continue using the M-AUdio card for TTS & music playback and the SB card for VR only.

                Happy Holidays,
                Paul

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                  #9
                  Paul,
                  Thanks. I just find the high CPU causes delays in VR so It is a real pain trying to tune with AP-Ware running.
                  I wanted to use Dan's script to make changes, but that doesn't run on HS 1.7 (or at least mine). I was hoping to be able to change presets from software so I could dynamicly switch them without buying another piece of hardware to activate the physical inputs.

                  Gardner

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Rupp
                    OK Paul you have my attention. Unfortunately I have no idea what a Mixer is... Can you explain to me (hopefully I'm not the only one) exactly how this works. How does the noise cancellation work? How exactly do you switch the Mic's? I need more info and thanks in advance for bringing this down to my level.
                    Hi Rupp,

                    The AP800's are very capable with LOTS of features. I'll take a shot at describing some of the basics and also explaining how some of the more advanced features work:

                    Mixer - A mixer is a device that connects input device (mics, intruments, etc) to outputs (amps/speakers, recording devices, etc.). They also provides control over volume, tone, and routing (what input gets to what output).

                    If you've ever been to a live music performance you've probably seen the sound engineer sitting in front of a panel with lots of sliders & knobs. That's the mixer and the sound engineers job is to tweak the sound by adjusting the volume and tone of different performers and instruments so that what comes out of the speakers for the audience to hear sounds "good". That sound engineer may even turn off mics that aren't in constant use so they aren't picking up "noise" or contributing to feedback (remember this example when we get to "gating".

                    Gentner AP800 - The Gentner AP800 is an automatic mixer that was designed for audio conferencing use. It uses Digital Signal Processing (DSP) to handle lots of different functions automatically. Like the Sound Engineer, DSP is constantly listening and making adjustments to try and improve the sound. I feel it's an ideal device for Voice Recognition (VR) and it works far better that any of the previous devices that I have tried.




                    Gating - Gating is defined as turning a mic on when it reaches a defined threashold (sound level) and then off again when the sound lowers. Once adjusted, the mic should gate on when you speak, then turn back off when you're not speaking. As an example, the AP800 was designed to be used for audio conferencing in a conference room with mics installed around the table. If all the mics were always on, they would pick up the sound of papers shuffling, people tapping pens on the table, etc. The result would be lots of noise at the other end of the phone call. Gating allows the mic to turn on as individuals are speaking, while blocking out the sounds that would have been picked up by other mics.
                    The AP800 adds several other features based on gating which are very useful for VR:
                    1. Number of mics allowed to gate on at any given time. For VR use, I set this to 1. For audio conferenceing this may have been set to 2-3 which would allow more than one person to speak and be heard at the same time. For VR use, it's important to keep this set to only gate a single mic on at a time if you plan to use the mixer to tell HS what room you are speaking from
                    2. Chairman mic - This allows you to configure one or more mics to take precidence over others. In the audio conference example, you'd want the leader(s) mic(s) set to chairman so if during the call an argument breaks out the leader(s) can always speak up and their mic will gate on so they can be heard.

                      In a VR setup this is helpful too. I have my Office, Living Room & Kitchen mics set to "chairman mode". If my girlfriend is using the hair dryer in the master bath, the noise will gate on the bathroom mic. I can still issue VR commands from the three rooms that are set to "chairman mode" while she's drying her hair because those mics will still gate on while gating off the bathroom mic to block the hair dryer noise from interfeering.
                    3. Adaptive Ambiance - With adaptive ambiance enabled, DSP is always monitoring the sound level in the house. If noise levels increase from something like a washing machine or dishwaser running, the threashold requird to gate the mic on is increased proportionaly.
                    4. Digital Outputs - The AP800 has digital outs that represent the mic gating status. These outputs effectively close a contact when a mic is gated on and open the contact when the mic is gated off. I've got these outputs connected to a SECUi-16 and with a little bit of scripting, HS knows which room I'm speaking from (which mic is gated on). This is why it's important that only 1 mic is allowed to gate on at any given time.

                      With this setup, you can simplify VR commands so that it's only required to say "lights on" instead of "living room lights on".

                    Echo Cancellation (noise reduction) - In it's audio conferencing role, this feature of the AP800 is used to minimize audio feedback and "echo" which everyone has experienced when using a speaker phone (sounds like you're in a cave). For VR use, this feature opens up even greater possibilities! If you connect the outputs of your home audio devices like the TV, Stereo and TTS to inputs on the AP800, it can effectively cancel the audio as demonstated in my recordings. DSP does this by comparing the signal that is receved from your stereo and comparing it to what the microphone is picking up. It determines what's "different" and strips out the rest leaving a signal with the stereo sound removed or greatly suppressed.
                    This helps VR hear your voice over the TV or music that's playing, but equally as important, it keeps the TV, stereo, or TTS from gating on a microphone. This is useful for me, because my TTS announcements play throughout the house on speakers built into the walls. Without this echo cancellation capability TTS announcement would gate random mics on around the house as HS speaks. This causes trouble if you are trying to use the gate status to tell HS where you are speaking from.



                    Some lesser mixers proving gating status, but without the echo cancellation this doesn't work well.
                    Example: I'm in the Kitchen and issue the VR command "What's the tempurature". TTS will announce "The tempurature outside it 65 degrees" throughout the house. Without the echo cancellation capability, the TTS announcement itself will likely gate on a mic in another room, maybe the bedroom. Now HS thinks I'm in the bedroom instead of the Kitchen. This doesn't alwasy cause problems, but if you start doing complex interactions with HS using VR commands dependant on knowing your location via mic gate status, it starts to fall apart quickly. With the echo cancellation, this isn't an issue as the mics "can't hear" the TTS announcements.



                    Inputs & Outputs - The AP800 has 12 inputs and 12 outputs that can be configured using the matrix mixer which basically means that any or all inputs can be routed to any or all outputs in any combination... very powerful for routing audio signals!
                    Each input has a 3-band EQ that can be used to adjust the audio tone as well as high & low pass filters which allow the mixer to filter out certain noise. This works good to eliminate the rumble from HVAC or other types of noises that are constant in tone.

                    Control - The AP800 has an RS-232 port that allows you to control all features and functions from your PC. It even has 8 presets that can be configured and then recalled by HS using scripts.

                    Wow... that's a lot of typing and really just scratches the surface on the AP800 capabilities. I've covered some of the important features that are useful for VR, but the device is capable of lots more.

                    I'd recommend downloading the manual that is available from www.clearone.com for anyone that is interested in learning more about this device.

                    Happy Holidays,


                    Paul







                    Click to visit: www.sbsmarthomes.com
                    Santa Barbara Smarthomes

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                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by gcyeaw
                      Paul,
                      Thanks. I just find the high CPU causes delays in VR so It is a real pain trying to tune with AP-Ware running.
                      Dan I do most of my tuning using the AP-Ware while listening to the output of the AP800 with headphones(not really testing with VR). I feel this is required to get the gate status tuned as well as the gain on the mics, etc. Once you sound good through the headphones, you know that VR will hear you well too.

                      If you're just giving VR commands while tuning in AP-Ware and waiting for HS to respond, how do you know what needs to be adjusted? If a command doesn't work, how to you know the mic volume is not too high instead of too low?

                      Paul

                      Click to visit: www.sbsmarthomes.com
                      Santa Barbara Smarthomes

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                      Comment


                        #12
                        Paul,
                        I do use headphones for testing, but once it sounds OK to me I want to play with the recognition by adjusting the volume, etc until I get consistant results. I can work around it.
                        Thanks. Gardner

                        Comment


                          #13
                          VR with AP800 in the UK

                          Paul

                          I've read some of your previous articles (fantastic!) and on the back of them have purchased an AP800 a couple of Crown-MB3 surface microphones to start with (all I could get) and some in-celiing speakers. Thanks for all your informative articles to date - brilliant!

                          However, it would really help for some specific VR advice for the setup. My brother-in-law has late-stage MS and cannot pick up items such as a phone, remote control or turn on lights etc. I want to do this via whole-house VR. As a first step, I would like to test 1) VR via the AP800, 2) echo cancellation and 3) last-gated Mic via my SECU-16 (as you have stated previously). Following this I need to get making and receiving calls via voice working and a front-door intercom also.

                          A couple of questions for you:
                          1. Can I have multiple inputs for echo cancellation, or only the one (I have 1 AP 800)? Ideally, I would like to do noise cancellation for phone and stereo/tv (but probably at separate times)
                          2. Do I NEED to use an AP10 for handsfree phone calls or can I simply connect the line out from my HS PCI modem into an input on the AP800?
                          3. How do I connect to my SECU-16 for the last gated Mic? I think I've missed something in the docs. And do you have any sample scripts you could pass on so I can get a running start. I haven't got into HS scripting yet!
                          4. Do you perform speaker switching or anything else to only get the responses sent to the speaker in the room with the last gated Mic?

                          Any other guidance points for the technical side of the integration would be great. After I get the test bed setup in my house, I'll be ready to install and tweak the levels in their final resting place as per your posts.

                          Many, many thanks!!! I appreciate you taking time out for this - it seems you get an endless stream on questions!

                          Martin

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                            #14
                            Martin,

                            I'll try to provide some quick answer below, and can follow-up later as you need more detail.

                            Originally posted by myapp
                            Paul

                            I've read some of your previous articles (fantastic!) and on the back of them have purchased an AP800 a couple of Crown-MB3 surface microphones to start with (all I could get) and some in-celiing speakers. Thanks for all your informative articles to date - brilliant!
                            Pleased to hear that you are finding the posts useful. I noticed that someone on Ebay has qty.7 Crown MB3 mics for a good price. No affiliation:

                            http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ADME:B:SS:US:1

                            Originally posted by myapp
                            However, it would really help for some specific VR advice for the setup. My brother-in-law has late-stage MS and cannot pick up items such as a phone, remote control or turn on lights etc. I want to do this via whole-house VR. As a first step, I would like to test 1) VR via the AP800, 2) echo cancellation and 3) last-gated Mic via my SECU-16 (as you have stated previously). Following this I need to get making and receiving calls via voice working and a front-door intercom also.
                            Sounds like you are off to a good start and have a good plan to tackle this in stages which I feel is important so you don't get overwhelmed trying to make it work all at once. I got my first start in HA over 10 years ago helping a disabled colleague by setting up some x10 in his house for lighting control. I didn't know anything about this stuff at the time, and it was actually what got me interetsted and started installing HA in my own home.

                            HST has a forum here specifically for the physically challenged and I'm always suprised that it doesn't receive more posts? Hopefully you can share your experiences working with your brother-in-law...


                            Originally posted by myapp
                            A couple of questions for you:
                            1. Can I have multiple inputs for echo cancellation, or only the one (I have 1 AP 800)? Ideally, I would like to do noise cancellation for phone and stereo/tv (but probably at separate times)
                            Yes, you can have more than one... I currently cancel the sound from my TV and whole-house audio. The AP800 will allow you to define up to 8 presets that can hold any of the configuration parameters which can quickly be recalled via scripting. This would be a good way to alter the settings for noise cancellation of different devices.

                            Originally posted by myapp
                            2. Do I NEED to use an AP10 for handsfree phone calls or can I simply connect the line out from my HS PCI modem into an input on the AP800?)
                            I haven't tried using only the AP800 and PCI modem, may be possible using the AP800 echo cancellation. I think you will find much better success using the AP10 as this is what it's designed for.

                            Originally posted by myapp
                            3. How do I connect to my SECU-16 for the last gated Mic? I think I've missed something in the docs. And do you have any sample scripts you could pass on so I can get a running start. I haven't got into HS scripting yet!
                            The mic gate status is provided from the DB25 connector on the back of the AP800. I used an old DB25 serial cable and cut off one end which provided wires that could be connected to the SECU-16. I'm a very basic scripter, but what I have works and I'm hapy to share it. Maybe some others can "enhance" them for better functionality.

                            Originally posted by myapp
                            4. Do you perform speaker switching or anything else to only get the responses sent to the speaker in the room with the last gated Mic?
                            I don't do any speaker switching at this time.

                            Originally posted by myapp
                            Any other guidance points for the technical side of the integration would be great. After I get the test bed setup in my house, I'll be ready to install and tweak the levels in their final resting place as per your posts.
                            Get started with the AP800 connected to your HS PC with a single mic as you planned. Do some VR training and get familiar with all the AP800 settings. Rig up a way to listen to the output with a pair of headphones so you can hear real-time what affect the change in settings have. Post back once you've made some progress with specific questions and I'll help out as I'm able.

                            Originally posted by myapp
                            Many, many thanks!!! I appreciate you taking time out for this - it seems you get an endless stream on questions!

                            Martin
                            You're welcome... keep me informed of your progress.

                            Cheers,
                            Paul

                            Click to visit: www.sbsmarthomes.com
                            Santa Barbara Smarthomes

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                              #15
                              Paul, this is a fantastic writeup that you posted. Thanks! After reviewing the AP800...(I guess the replacement now is the XAP800?)...it looks as though it handles 8 microphone inputs. I am designing a house where I will have mics in most rooms, which will put me over that number. What do you do when you have more than 8 microphones? I'm assuming it doesn't make sense to put multiple microphone sources into one input, otherwise you wouldn't know where exactly the VR commands were coming from. Can you link multiple XAP800's together? That's getting pricey...


                              Thanks! -scott

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