Plug-In Futures

[Rick Tinker]

Hello,

I have 2-3 helpdesk tickets open from users reporting that the import functionality for the Stargate plug-in is not working right under HomeSeer 2.x.

I have one user telling me that it is preventing him from moving to HomeSeer 2.x, yet as I understand it, the import functionality is a one-time thing only.

Glen (original author of the plug-in) is too busy to continue to provide adequate support for this plug-in, so we (HST) are going to resume support for it as soon as I get the latest source code from Glen.

What I would like to know is this - is my understanding of the import function accurate or is there more to it than just creating X-10 devices in HomeSeer based upon what is in the Stargate?

The future of this plug-in may go one of two ways: HST will fix the import issue, and then the plug-in will be put in the open source repository, OR, HST will fix the import issue, and then the plug-in will no longer be a free plug-in.

Please chime in here about the import issue so that I can get up-to-speed on it.

We also know approximately how many users there are of the plug-in, but not exact, and so I will be posting a poll with this post to learn of people's preferences on the future of the plug-in, which will also serve to (hopefully) give me a more accurate count of users using this plug-in.

Thank you!

[ajackson123]

Rick,

So glad to see this finally addressed. I've been struggling with this ever since 2.0 came out - some releases it worked (sort of) and some it didn't. Not sure what happens with the current beta because I finally gave up and went back to 1.7 (where it works great). However, I have a base of customers to whom I'm longing to promote the integration of SG and HS, but CAN'T because of this - and 1.7 isn't available anymore, or I'd go that route. I'm not sure what difference a paid plugin makes vs. a free one except that (I'm guessing) a paid-for plugin would get adequate attention? That's my vote.

Andy

[Markrat]

I would happily pay for the plugin assuming that the current problems were ironed out as I also make much of the integration possibilities between HS and SG (or used to!). I can readily see why no-one would gain anything other than hassle from supporting it at present.

With regard to the import issue. For me it sort of works now, except that it overwrites everything in the database that you already have.

You used (in 1.7) to be able to select which device types you wanted to import, and then whether they overwrote existing devices or not. This was much better, as you need to import from time to time, as you develop a system. You can simply add the new devices manually, but then you have to do it with both peices of kit, which if you're changing something major is a shame.

What does work is the create devices feature, but again, you'd only really use it once to create the base set of devices. It doesn't however create all of them for me for example, although I know that it does for others. There is some confusion between variables and timers that it creates for instance, and I haven't been able to work out what exactly happens there.

It also doesn't avoid house codes that HS rejects (punctuation marks), unless it's the first plugin to be installed and run. I had a lot of trouble with this a while back, although a clean start, with the JDS Plugin unstalled first seemed to cure this.

I also have the JDS IR plugin for HS 2, but I can get it to install over the plugin I inadvertantly installed that was presumably meant to address it through the SG, but I guess that's a different thing completely.

[Markrat]

Sorry that last paragraph should have read:

"I also have the JDS IR plugin for HS 2, but I CANNOT get it to install over the plugin I inadvertantly installed that was presumably meant to address it through the SG, but I guess that's a different thing completely."

[Cairndhu1]

Early this year, I decided, for a number of very good reasons, to upgrade my StarGate (SG) Home Automation to HomeSeer (HS) supported by SG for interface to dozens of real-time analog inputs, digital inputs, and relay outputs. I saw no reason to move IR control to HS so it remains with SG. I can only comment on the SG plugin from the viewpoint of its behavior with HS2. There are many problems; I will describe just some of the here. Frankly, it is unfair and quite unreasonable to expect Glendon Todd to continue supporting the HS/SG community for free! I strongly recommend that HS take on this responsibility as a high priority task (in so far as resources allow) and charge for a robust HS2 SG plugin.

Help Files: These look to me like they pertain to HS1.7; certainly they have been of little help to me.

Import Issues: On start-up, the plugin reports:

19-May-06 06:46:43: JDS StarGate - Expanders identified in positions: 0, 1, 2, 3

However, only information from the motherboard, an arbitrary number of variables (32), and an arbitrary number of Flags (64) is imported from SG to HS. Further, once import completes, that’s it! The only way to import changes (or correct inadvertent deletion of imported data) is to delete everything and start over (which, for various reasons, I had to do several times). Properly, there should be a facility to upgrade the import of selected fields from time to time w/o the need to clear everything first.

Usability Issues: For the HS <-> SG combination (which I call “StarSeer”) to work efficiently, a change in any key SG item, whether it be digital Input (SG -> HS), relay output (HS -> SG if HS is to handle relay logic), Flags, or Variables must be reflected in both systems within less than a second w/o any action by either system other than to configure “Set” or “Get” options. I found that a change in a Flag value or a digital input on the SG side is not reflected in HS without an extraneous event causing refresh. Variables, on the other hand, are reflected in a fraction of a second in both systems regardless of which system makes the change.

Workaround: Within the 32 variables available, I use seven of them to coordinate the two systems, viz:

Name Description
-----------------------------------------------------------
HSmacroRQE HS Request for SG Action
SGmacroERR SG Macro Logic Error
SGmacroCMD SG Keypad or HS Action Request
SGtoHSforPLC SG Request to HS for X10 Control
SGtoHSforWA SG RQE to HS Speech Output
HStoSGforFLG HS to SG for Flag Set/Clear
HStoSGforCMD HS to SG as Command "Mirror"

While this approach works, a detailed explanation of the rationale is beyond the scope of this essay. Careful layout and documentation of numerical values is important or development and support becomes unwieldy.

Other Problems: My goal is to be able to use HS for voice recognition and command of, for example, SG relay Outputs. However, Speaker.exe exhibits several unusual behavior patterns, e.g., a voice command is recognized properly, the correct variable sent to SG, but then followed by a random selection of other variable value changes (among other things). Decreasing the window of voice command recognition to no more than 2 seconds seems to work most of the time. Whether this is an HS problem, a plugin problem, or a problem with the interaction, I don’t know.

Conclusion: I strongly urge HS to assume responsibility for, stabilizing, and supporting Glen’s SG plugin, and charge a fair fee for the HS2 plugin. We will all be much better off. Regards, Whitey.

[Rick Tinker]

Keep up the replies and post to the poll. The reason is, we have to make money, or at least in the case of plug-ins cannot lose money, or HomeSeer will not be around. It does not take very long to accrue $1000 or more in development time, and at $39.95 (as an example) it takes 25 sales to make that up, and our data right now shows that there are perhaps twice that many SG users, but we do not know for sure. Where this ends up is going to be determined a lot by how many people are using the plug-in, not by how serious their problems/issues with it are.

If the plug-in went to open source that would not necessarily be a bad thing as there are some very talented hobby programmers out there willing to work on it, and 3-4 of those working on it might get much more done faster than 1 HST or contract programmer.

Regarding some of the comments on the issues the plug-in has... Keep in mind that we have to do with what we are given. I recall years ago working with JDS products, and at that time there was NO provision for the JDS to notify you of when a digital input changed. This meant that you had to first load a schedule into the (TimeCommander) that would send an ASCII string when a digital input changes. Besides this not being a very good protocol, loading a schedule and overwriting the user's is a bad thing. This may be related to the problem where other changes mentioned are not getting noticed by the plug-in fast enough - it might be something that the plug-in has to POLL the JDS product for, which is never a good solution for anything where you want near realtime performance.

[Mark S.]

I think that paying $40 for consistent support of the plugin would be well worth it. When the SG/HS combo works, it's the best thing since beer. And I spend a heck of a lot more than $40 on beer.

Anybody know where Glen Todd works now? Maybe we can plot to get him fired so he can get back to the plugin!

Regarding open source, I would worry that there may not be a critical mass of SG users that have both the programming skills and the motivation to keep it moving forward for many years to come. As a chemical engineer, I, for one, would be useless (unless you want to brew/drink beer).

I can't speak to the current import problems because I have been very reluctant to upgrade to HS 2, or the new 2.0 JDS plugin, until I hear from enough other SG users that they work well together. I'm still happily using HS 1.7.30 and plugin 1.3.42.

Finally, I know that several Stargate users have recently been turned on to HomeSeer, but I'm guessing they had a lousy HS 2.0 trial because of the problems with the 2.0 plugin. In other words, potential HS customers may be walking away. I would think that if you build it (and it's affordable), they will come.

Mark

[jhearty]

There wasn't a choice that met my desire. From what I have heard Glen has been doing a good job supporting the plugin and I'd like things to remain as is. He also works closely with JDS when changes with new Stargate firmware affect the plugin. That said, I have not yet started using Homeseer, and am anxiously waiting for the issues related to the 2.0 release to stabalize before jumping in. John

[timlacey]

I am a user of the plugin, and I'm using the latest plugin with the 1.7.44 version of Homeseer. I find it to be generally reliable. I also find Glen to be generally helpful and reliable in terms of putting out a new version.

That said, Glen appears to want to both be helpful to the JDS community and to develop his own system. That works for me, and I truly appreciate the work that Glen has done. BUT, if Homeseer enhanced and supported a plugin, I think it would be better for users since HST could assume responsibilty for the plugin and be more accountable for issues related to it. They could also use it as an opportunity to build more support in the Stargate and Commstar user base.

I would be willing to pay for it. And Homeseer as a program would be better for it, assuming that HST can take Glen's code and make it better and then support it.

I bought Homeseer specifically because it was recommended as a solution to work with Stargate. I was sold by the phone and speech abilities. Being able to get support for the total solution would be a big plus. Plus fixes and improvements could be made as needed, and not when Glen has a chance. I do worry, however, that Homeseer would not make attempts to increase functionality over time as Glen has done.

Bottom line - I want the best plugin I can get, and I'm more than happy to pay for it if necessary.

[Cairndhu1]

Troops, I cannot believe what I am reading vis-a-vis all the wishy-washy hoped-for free support! Glendon has other things to do with his time and effort than support a bunch of freeloaders. That said, "Tink"'s comments are right to the point. Any business, and HS is a a business, must make a profit or collapse. In a public forum, I am constained as to what I can say, but privately (anyone can reach me on my Cell @ 520-907-4599 or by email at cairndhu1@cox.net), I can say plenty regarding the various points/counterpoints raised & or discussed. I am busily upgrading my Home Automation system from Jeff's StarGate to HomeSeer Vrs2. I call the combo "StarSeer". BTW: That name is available for trademark (in so far as I can tell) in this particular limited context though I have no interest in doing so; HS may wish to consider it though.

"Tink", if HS is willing to take on support of Glendon's SG plugin, I am willing to contribute $1,000 to your cause. In return, I ask only that I get the result first and free of charge. I also ask that HS help me with my current Speaker.exe bugs (cf. rjh for relevant emails) on a best effort basis as time and resources permit. I also suggest a price of $44.95 for others who wish to benefit from this work. That figure, of course, is up to HS. Let me know if HS has any interest, and I'll draft a short contract for your review. Warm Regards, Whitey.

BTW: "There is no such thing as a free lunch!"

[Pierre]

When I found the existence of Homeseer and Glen's plugin I jumped imediatly on it since it was exactly what I wanted for my home.
It was unexpensive, easy and very powerfull.
I am now running 1.7 with great success, but never had the plugin working well for HS2.0, for import and relay refresh status reasons.

If I was in the same situation today, just finding the Homeseer site for the first time, I will probably be frightened to take the plunge, to have a quite expensive combination of hardware and software only causing WAF to drop down to minus values.
To the point where I am, I would not care to pay a few dollars more to have a correct plugin, either to HSteam or an independant developer, as long as the support follows.
Since HS2.0 came out, and I bought it BEFORE that as others, Glen could not give us a functional build, and HS could not do anything about that.
If this is a money problem, Glen should just say it and he should get it.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by Cairndhu1

Troops, I cannot believe what I am reading vis-a-vis all the wishy-washy hoped-for free support! Glendon has other things to do with his time and effort than support a bunch of freeloaders.

?? Quite the opposite. So far, it looks like most users are willing to pay for a plugin.

For the sake of discussion, I'm going to offer another view here.

To be fair, Glen has stated (on JDSUsers) that he is now, and will continue supporting the plugin. I never recall him griping about compensation or freeloaders. He has basically delivered a very complex product that worked prior to HS 2.0. He was responsible for bringing Stargate users over to HomeSeer. Personally, I'd like to see him paid.

I really can't comment on the reliability of the most recent plugin because I haven't tried it yet. I'd be curious to know how many users have no problems with the new plugin. I have been scared off by 1) the many initial issues with the new HS 2.0 and 2) the posts about import/relay/etc. problems with the plugin. I don't have the time anymore to be an early-adopter. Obviously, the problems with the plugin arose from the significant and rapid changes to HS over the past year. The JDS plugin is not the only one with issues. I'm sure that multiple possible hardware and software configurations make plugin support very difficult.

Originally Posted by Cairndhu1

"Tink", if HS is willing to take on support of Glendon's SG plugin, I am willing to contribute $1,000 to your cause. In return, I ask only that I get the result first and free of charge.

Wow. Very admirable. But again, for the sake of debate, I'd like to offer a few questions. Does HST have a complete set of JDS hardware (SG with I/O expanders, etc.) to develop and test and prove out the plugin for the long haul? Will HST have a vested interest in adding future functionality as JDS modifies? What happens to user group cohesion if HST offers a paid version and Glen offers his own free version?

Again, I'm not sure which way to go. But if paying either HST or Glen buys me continued confidence and timely updates/fixes in a plugin - I'm all for it. Let's just not screw it up.

Mark

[spudbw]

I have found the latest SG plug-in to be the best so far, with hs2. I had some issues with the import duplicating devices. Glenn has always done a great job of quickly responding to users' requests and deserves adequate compensation. JDS is slowly disappearing from my horizon as it becomes more and more problematic.

Dennis

[GAbound]

Well just as im thinking about Stargate SG-1P, tell me is it going to ba a mistake? I dont have any system stuff yet but been researching.

[seeker]

I've had a Stargate system running for the past three years and have been regularly checking the JDS and Homeseer bulletin boards to see if it makes sense to buy Homeseer as a complementary extension to my system. When all is said and done, I won't buy Homeseer unless Homeseer takes over the plug-in and provides effective support/development. I don't think that there are enough capable JDS/Homeseer users out there to keep the plug-in moving forward if it is an open source package.

As an alternative to a plug-in fee, how about offering a support plan for the relatively few JDS Stargate/Homeseer users out there? While I realize that most hobby automation folks are notorioulsy cheap, this may be a case where there are no other alternatives to keep the plug-in alive.

Food for thought.
Len

[noopara]

Like many others here, I'm a long time user of SG and have been waiting for the new version of HS and plug-in to stabilize before jumping in.

Glenn has a lot invested in developing the plug-in and should share in any income from sales if the decision is made to make it a plug-in for sale. I'm not opposed to paying for it.

-- greg

[Rick Tinker]

Just to keep this good discussion going, let me throw a few random thoughts out here.

First of all, Glen may still be very willing to work on this plug-in, in fact I am sure of it, but he cannot do it for free and we were not going to pay him without investigating this further. We have shelled out $$ for the plug-in and just do not want to put good money after bad. It is still a very viable solution to continue the relationship we have had with Glen, but now to pay him for his work using revenue gathered from the plug-in to help justify it.


Just like with me, we tend to defend our previous decisions, especially when a monetary investment is concerned. MY OPINION is that yes, the Stargate is a great HA controller but was designed to be mostly standalone. As soon as you add HomeSeer, you now have a significant amount of overlap and for many people the Stargate becomes an expensive I/O device. So in hindsight, if you knew then what you know now, would you still buy a Stargate, or would you perhaps have purchased a TimeCommander Plus or Adicon (Ocelot) system perhaps and saved $500-$600? If you put aside the fact that some things run in the Stargate because people feel hardware is more reliable than PC hardware (don't go there), and you just look at functionality, I think you will see a huge amount of overlap. I say all of this because I see a lot of people saying that HS and SG is a great combination, but is HS and Ocelot or HS and TCP just as good?

The offer to fund the development work is being considered - it might be enough to justify getting Glen to fix the current issues, and then perhaps revenue from sales can justify ongoing support. I for one would be happy to find a way to keep the plug-in but with Glen getting something for the time he is putting in on it. I personally don't know why he did not tell us to pound sand long ago!

[Rick Tinker]

Is there nobody who can explain to me what the import issue with the plug-in is all about?

We would like to get it fixed, but need to know what the issue(s) is/are.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by Rick Tinker

Is there nobody who can explain to me what the import issue with the plug-in is all about?

We would like to get it fixed, but need to know what the issue(s) is/are.

I'm not using HS 2.1 or the 2.0.0.X version of the JDS plugin, but based on a few of the posts I've seen, it seems to be a wide-ranging problem:

http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=113531

http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=113478

http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=111669

http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=111462

I assume some of the victims can shed more light on it?

Mark

[Rick Tinker]

OK - part of the problem is that I am getting dissertations that are kind of confusing for me to read, and sometimes there are "how I think it should work" statements througout some of these posts. Don't get me wrong - I want to know all of those details, but I am just trying to get the critical stuff fixed.

It looks like 90% of the problem is related to imports of various things, and I can certainly take care of the problems with devices and events not being created properly so long as the interpretation of the imported data is still good.

Let me ask another question that might help me get this fixed.... Is there a specific version number that any of you can recall that had everything working correctly under 1.7? The later the version the better because I am not sure what features Glen may have put in after that. Perhaps I can go to an old 1.7 version and re-do the changes for HS 2.0 since in reality, they are not that difficult.

Also, I have sent two emails to Glen asking how much $$ it would take for him to fix the current issues, but in two weeks he has not responded yet. If any of you communicate with him in other circles, please let him know. He has a big email management problem - half the messages never get to him and so I don't know if he is ignoring me or if he never got the message.